tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post6206302239948768618..comments2023-10-08T04:08:41.418-06:00Comments on Sporadic Maunderings: The Phenomenology of QiQalmleahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17131154882107531113noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-74546778098699238412009-01-30T00:29:00.000-07:002009-01-30T00:29:00.000-07:00Yeah, nobody ever frames it in those unflattering ...Yeah, nobody ever frames it in those unflattering terms I have chosen--especially when referring to their own actions. But...<BR/><BR/>I submit that the rules we follow, yet dare not admit, manifest themselves somatically as "unconscious tension". In fact, this is nearly a tautology.<BR/><BR/>"Don't train in bad habits" is one such rule.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-18067981368121856652009-01-29T19:08:00.000-07:002009-01-29T19:08:00.000-07:00^/^ For good or ill, I don't analyze my push hand...^/^ For good or ill, I don't analyze my push hands in that manner. For me, it's a matter of whether I can respond without tensing up or using excessive force. It's not that those are "against the rules" so much as that they "train in bad habits."<BR/><BR/>In general, for most of the people I've pushed with, I think it's more a matter of unconscious tension interfering with free movement rather than not responding due to unwillingness to break the rules. But that attitude may be something that depends on the style in which a person was taught, too. *shrugs*Qalmleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17131154882107531113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-62008123449627219362009-01-29T14:46:00.000-07:002009-01-29T14:46:00.000-07:00When one miscalculates the appropriate amount, or ...When one miscalculates the appropriate amount, or vector of force to use in a particular maneuver, and therefore declines to respond appropriately under the mistaken premise that doing so would break the rules of the push hands game, then they may report an "inability" to counter. That apparent inability is actually unwillingness, or a self-imposed limitation--which can be interpreted as an excessive desire to cooperate.<BR/><BR/>You've probably experienced this before, but I did not describe it well. No big deal.<BR/><BR/>I have elaborated on this basic point in a few posts, including:<BR/><A HREF="http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/in-my-dojo-cheaters-are-welcome/" REL="nofollow">In My Dojo, Cheaters And Failures Are Welcome</A>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-13777992650995673062009-01-29T07:06:00.000-07:002009-01-29T07:06:00.000-07:00Not having experienced such a push, all I can do i...Not having experienced such a push, all I can do is return to my teacher's report. And he indicated that he willfully and consciously tried to just root against Wang's push, and was unable to do so.<BR/><BR/>What I have found in "normal" push hands is that when I'm pushed out, it's because I've run out of useful responses (often due to responding incorrectly at the beginning of the push), and have no where left to go. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what you mean by "changing something they did not care to change." Possibly I'm just not at a level where that makes sense to me. But when I'm at the end of my root, and find that turning will not deflect the force, I simply step out. Doing anything else would be insisting, and only train in bad habits. <BR/><BR/>If I slow it down, I explore the position I find myself in, looking for an "opening" that will allow me to deflect or absorb the force. And all of that makes it sound like a much more conscious process than it is. If there is an opening, I move through it until I get stuck or until my partner is pushed out, whichever happens first. If there is no such opening, I step out. <BR/><BR/>"Don't insist; don't resist." That's the push-hands mantra we use. I just feel like I'm missing something in your description (and I have to go to work at the moment, or I'd sit here pondering some more).Qalmleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17131154882107531113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-91018238744267418552009-01-28T23:29:00.000-07:002009-01-28T23:29:00.000-07:00With respect, if your teacher is one of Henry Wang...With respect, if your teacher is one of Henry Wang's students (or even if he is not), he may not have been fully non-cooperative--both physically and psychologically. <BR/><BR/>For example, most all Taiji students operate under the premise that Taiji has value. Why would they do it otherwise? True or false, this belief colors their perceptions and their behaviors.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I have had practice partners confess that they could not resist my force. Actually, they could not resist it <I>without changing something they did not care to change</I>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-70288141061010502462009-01-28T22:28:00.000-07:002009-01-28T22:28:00.000-07:00Oh? That's a thought that hadn't occurred to me.....Oh? That's a thought that hadn't occurred to me... but my teacher's experience doesn't quite fit. He experienced one of Henry Wang's distance-pushes, and said that he consciously tried to resist it, and failed. So, at the very least, the cooperation is not always at the conscious level. *shrugs*Qalmleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17131154882107531113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-37800413190740658012009-01-28T19:48:00.000-07:002009-01-28T19:48:00.000-07:00There is a difference between cooperation and hypn...There is a difference between cooperation and hypnosis, that most viewers of the Henry Wang videos fail to appreciate. The videos show a cooperative practice method--not gullibility, or a hyperactive imagination.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-51269856267212325562009-01-25T08:40:00.000-07:002009-01-25T08:40:00.000-07:00I have to disagree, somewhat. Part of what taiji ...I have to disagree, somewhat. Part of what taiji and qigong do is to put the body in positions where the sensation of qi is more likely to arise. In that sense, qi cannot simply be removed; at the very least, the body principles that tend to bring about the experience must still be included.<BR/><BR/>However, it is not necessary to think of qi as <EM>more than</EM> those bodily sensations. Perhaps it is; perhaps it isn't. I lean towards "hoping that it's more," while remaining very skeptical about the chances of ever proving that.<BR/><BR/>Too-much-Mythbuster-moment: I was just imagning putting voltmeters, etc, on Henry Wang during his pushing-at-a-distance demo...Qalmleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17131154882107531113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-37688135652239989002009-01-24T17:18:00.000-07:002009-01-24T17:18:00.000-07:00"usually follow with something like "Thus (taiji|q..."usually follow with something like "Thus (taiji|qigong|etc.) are complete bunk." "<BR/><BR/>Some people cannot separate the good from the woo that has historically been attached to it, because they don't seem to understand that taiji and qigong (yoga also gets this a lot) are more like sports (now) than religions.<BR/><BR/>Unlike religions, Catholicism for instance, taiji and qigong are not empty rituals designed to condition people to accept the woo. They have real benefits because they are exercise forms have been refined over centuries to be very efficient and effective. The woo is just sort of tacked on, not an essential basis to the whole.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10876775111703252840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-35124501585567002472009-01-24T13:20:00.000-07:002009-01-24T13:20:00.000-07:00One more thought: I think the reason I tend to ar...One more thought: I think the reason I tend to argue when people just dismiss qi is that they then usually follow with something like "Thus (taiji|qigong|etc.) are complete bunk." The exercises are very good for the body, and I've found that they help my mental state as well. <BR/><BR/>As for instruction... My teacher is open to whatever works for a student. Since qi-imagery works for me, he talks about it a lot with me. It doesn't work so well for Melissa, so he usually finds other ways to describe things for her.Qalmleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17131154882107531113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-82869538240675055372009-01-24T13:05:00.000-07:002009-01-24T13:05:00.000-07:00Yeah. I have seen no evidence of such a "magical ...Yeah. I have seen no evidence of such a "magical force." I would like to, honestly. It would be awesome if it worked like "The Force." The closest I've seen to that is videos of Henry Wang's pushing-at-a-distance... which looks to me like there's some sort of hypnosis-trance-inducing effect. Still interesting and impressive, but ultimately not "The Force."Qalmleahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17131154882107531113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13641190.post-26618909749414701052009-01-24T09:57:00.000-07:002009-01-24T09:57:00.000-07:00I won't argue with you about your sensation of qi....I won't argue with you about your sensation of qi. I can accept that. A <A HREF="http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/01/the_best_trial_of_qi_gong_ever.php" REL="nofollow">recent post by Orac</A> comes to mind. Check out the comments. Every commenter defending qi is using your understanding, but that isn't what Orac is talking about. He's objecting to claims that qi is a magical force that can do all sorts of fantastical things, but which, under reasonable experimental conditions, somehow fails every time.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10876775111703252840noreply@blogger.com